Hey everyone. I ran into this site a couple of days ago while researching some Irish tunes...I am an American with a great deal of interest in Ireland. I have friends and family there, and of course some Irish ancestry too...like almost everyone else in the USA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I have been reading some of these threads with great interest. I am trying to understand the terminology here...unionists, loyalists, etc...so bear with me if I get confused! I love history and discussing politics, and I'd love to learn more about the situation in the land of my forefathers.

Anyway, thought I'd say hi! Thanks for putting together this cool forum!

Hiya Firinne and welcome to the forum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm Irish and love learning about America, seeing as how I spend so much of my time at the states. I can understand how some of the terminology might be a bit difficult and if you have any questions, feel free to ask (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Also, as an alternative to asking in the forum, I do have most of the terminology, as well as loads that isn't dicussed at this forum at my website. The link is in my profile, and all you have to do is click on my name up there at the left and will take you to my profile, or here's the link in here .... http://weeirishdevil.tripod.com/id15.html I haven't yet had the time to actually change the links at my profile, but 'Glossary' listed directly under that link at the left of the page, is the continuation of that Glossary. I'll fix it someday, as well as do some editing.

Anyhoo, you'll find that I'm rather wordy and sorta opinionated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but usually I get on well with everybody (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hope you find yourself at home here and hope this post finds you well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) See ya 'roun the forum Firinne!!!

Welcome to the Forum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
WeeIrishDevil...'rather wordy'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ...'Opinionated'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Not You (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Actually, I was thinking more on the lines of 'Articulate' and 'Straight Forward' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Thanks for the welcome, Patrick and WeeIrishDevil.

I do actually have a question, and would love to hear the input of anyone else here on this, as well.

I have family in Ireland, as I mentioned. My cousin married a girl from Kildare (sounds like an Irish song! lol) When I was visiting there we got into some great discussions about politics...and I like to hear input from both sides of the 'pond' on this subject.

Apparently, the IRA is still quite active in the part of the Republic where my cousin and his family lives. I was surprised by this, since I had been led to believe that the peace process was well under way there, and besides, I thought it was Northern Ireland where that sort of thing went on anyway. I have even heard that there are quite a few IRA groups living in the US, and that they often garner contributions from Americans. I'd like to know how you all feel about this.

I should mention that we don't get much news here of what's going on over there...I did hear about the IRA decommissioning their weapons though, which I take it, is a great step! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Firinne, I too live in the states. I was always told thru our 'unbiased' media, that the fighting in Ireland was between the Catholics and the Protestants. After talking with the wonderful people in this forum, I learned many things our own government wont tell us. Its called the truth.
Visit my website and do some reading. Very Imformative.
As for the IRA, Bushs 'Patriot Act' has them listed as Terrorists. We cannot publicly support them without being targeted as terrorists ourselves. It is also true that a great deal of money gets sent to Ireland to help the cause. The cause of course is getting the British influence out of Ireland.
The Island of Ireland consists of 32 counties. 26 counties make up 'The Republic of Ireland', The other 6 make up 'Northern Ireland'. NI is where the majority of the 'Troubles' have started, continued, and will continue until things drasticly change.
All though everyone is welcome to this forum, we are predominately Irish Republicans. Some members use more tact than others when a challenge is presented. Some members have alot more patience as well. Some people fight with their hands, some use words to convey their feelings better than others. I think you will find that we all have a few things in common. The Love of Ireland and the Vision of seeing A Nation Once Again.

Belated welcome Firinne.

Whereabouts in the United States of USA are you from?

Nice and thanks Patrick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Such a darlin ... same as per usual (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But tis ok to say I'm wordy, as I know I am lol When some people ask what colour the sky is, most would say grey, blue, or whatever the actual colour was. I'd be the one to explain in so much detail that it would be damn difficult not to paint the picture within your mind. Can be both good and bad there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)

Also, there are many IRA at the states. Just recently there were several more at LA and Phoenix. There's loads that goes on that others don't realise but most of why they've been in the states was for one of two reasons 1) Money and 2) hiding. As for how active or inactive they are remains to be seen. I can say this much .. they've said they weren't fighting any more. Only thing I can say is we shall see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Chrisbhoy,

I am from Florida. Nice and warm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Patrick, I am just now going to look at your website. I looked at WeeIrishDevil's earlier this afternoon. Interesting stuff! As I said before, I am just trying to learn more here and plan to keep an open mind. However, I must say that the picture my family has painted of the IRA is that they are a criminal element, at least in Western Ireland where they live. Apparently extortion, racketeering, and other mafia-type crime is quite commonly done by IRA members there.

Like I said though, I don't want to jump onto any bandwagons. I just want to learn more. And I have always prided myself on being open to new ideas.

On to Patrick's site...I'll get back to you later.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Welcome, and hope you enjoyed it!!

Hi Firinne. I'm relatively new here too.

I thought I'd try to help you with some definitions...

Loyalist. This term comes basically from those of us who are loyal to our country and/or to the crown. However, increasingly it is used to refer to those who are rather more fanatical about it. They are often fanatical to such a degree that they harbour hatred or resentment for Roman Catholics - whether those Roman Catholics are fanatical about their own political ideology or not. So when you hear about loyalist rioting, loyalist groups etc, you know that they range from being staunch in their views, to fanatical. They are militant. Be careful though - often people of the opposite ideology will use the word loyalist to describe more moderate people. Loyalists exist throughout Northern Ireland and Scotland primarily, but can be found also in England. There is a subtle difference that I personally use when writing about them. I usually capitalise the L when I'm talking specifically about those who are involved with Loyalist organisations such as the UVF or the UDA (terrorists). I give a small L to those I perceive as merely supporting those groups, or who are extreme in their viewpoint.

Unionist. Unionists are those people who, like loyalists, support a United Kingdom, but stop short of support for violence and terrorism. They tend to be far more moderate and are not exclusively Protestant. Again, I capitalise the U for those who are active with some organisation such as the Ulster Unionist Party, or the Democratic Unionist Party. Those who merely vote for, or just simply support the ideology that Northern Ireland should remain in the UK, I tend to give a small U too. This is the category which I put myself in.

Republican. These are generally the polar opposite of Loyalists. They support what is known as the Republican Movement. In Northern Ireland, people with this ideology tend to be Socialist to one degree or another. Elsewhere though, this is not usually the case. Most Republicans support the Provisional IRA, or other similar terrorist organisations, to one degree or another. Republicans want Northern Ireland to split from the United Kingdom, and join with the Republic of Ireland. Once again, a capital R for those 'involved' and not for those who merely support.

Nationalist. These people are the opposite of unionists. They generally don't tend to support violence, and don't support terrorism. They do support the ideology of a democratically-supported change in Northern Ireland constitution which will lead, they hope, to a 32-county Republic of Ireland. Once more, a capital N for those involved with the Social Democratic and Labout Party (the SDLP), and a small N for those that merely support the ideology.

I hope that helps to start with.

Welcome to the forum.

ummmmm ..... bad boy Setanta ... when you referred to Loyalists, you said they were staunch in their views or fanatical and referred to the IRA as terrorists. Pray tell, Setanta, do you not see the Loyalists as terrorists also? Just a curiousity kinda thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you think that is confusing  rucdivisions.jpg ( 19.78k ) Number of downloads: 57

Obviously I do. Didn't you read my sentence: "I usually capitalise the L when I'm talking specifically about those who are involved with Loyalist organisations such as the UVF or the UDA (terrorists)."?

Also, I said that "most Republicans support the Provisional IRA...", which implies that not all do.

The IRA are terrorists.

The UDA are terrorists.

The UVF are terrorists.

The 'Real' IRA are terrorists.

The Continuity IRA are terrorists.

The UFF are terrorists.

I don't think I could have been any clearer or any more fair tbh.

As for Patrick's little picture.. in other circumstances it might be funny. However, considering the topic, I don't see any humour in it.

To clarify for Firinne:

RUC: Royal Ulster Constabulary. Developed from the Royal Irish Constabulary when the 26 counties split from Ireland in 1921 and formed their own government. The RUC was the police force of Northern Ireland. When it was set up it was limited by statute to a maximum of 3,000 officers. Around 2,000 of these positions were filled reasonably quickly, mostly by non-Roman Catholics. The remaining 1,000 or so positions were kept available for Roman Catholics for a time. Unfortunately the positions were not filled by Roman Catholics, and so were filled up by the waiting non-Roman Catholic applicants.

The RUC had variously between 8% and 13% Roman Catholic officers at a time when the population of Northern Ireland was about 34% Roman Catholic in 1922 to about 43% Roman Catholic when the PSNI was formed as a replacement of the RUC in 2001.

Obviously this is quite a misrepresentation. However, the RUC had attempted numerous recruitment drives specifically geared towards raising the representation of Roman Catholics in the force, throughout the years.

These attempts were constantly thwarted by the Provisional IRA throughout the 1970s and 1980s. The IRA intimidated Roman Catholics from joining the police force. Many Roman Catholics simply didn't want to join the police force because of the fear of their family or friends being killed by the IRA as a direct consequence.

Many other Roman Catholics didn't want to join the RUC because of their political ideology - one in which they refused to recognise the authority of the police force as it was representative of what they saw as a security force of a 'foreign' or 'occupying' power.

At the start of the Troubles, around 1968-69, television pictures showed the police dealing with a riot situation with a rather heavy hand. Particularly memorable were the oft-repeated segments of TV footage in which some members of the RUC had used their batons on the heads of rioting Roman Catholics. The police force hadn't seen that kind of rioting before and was, at that time, quite unprepared. Quite often rioters would out-number policemen by a factor of forty rioters to one policeman. In similar situations around the world, or in London, police forces from different parts of the country were usually drafted in to help contain the rioting. For some reason, this was not the case with Northern Ireland. More often than not, the police found themselves in the middle of riots between mostly-Catholic and mostly-Protestant areas. The rioters became increasingly sophisticated - with the throwing of bottles, bricks and petrol bombs (Molotov Cocktails).

Terrorist organisations became involved and often instigated and directed rioting. Guns were brought into the situation, and the RUC responded with plastic (or rubber) bullets and water cannon. Some of these rubber bullets claimed the lives of children who were involved in the rioting. Sometimes rioting was coordinated in different locations across Northern Ireland in such a way as to stretch an already under-manned police force.

It was clear that the RUC could not cope, and sometimes riots lasted for literally days. Instead of bringing over other police forces to help though, the government decided to reinforce the Army in Northern Ireland. At first, the idea was to help protect the smaller, and more isolated Roman Catholic communities fromthe larger surrounding Protestant areas. And the Army was welcomed in Catholic areas - the locals often bringing the soldiers cups of tea, buns and cake. This changed over time however, when the IRA organised riots in which soldiers and police officers were killed, and started actively targetting both the soldiers and the police officers - on- or off-duty - often without regard to the civilian populations.

Having been targetted specifically by Republican terrorists, and not by loyalists, the police and army started a programme of counter-terrorism against the Provisional IRA and the INLA. Laws were passed which gave 'special powers' to the police and army under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, including internment. Having seen their comrades being murdered and tortured by the IRA, some officers were apparently quite brutal to IRA suspects.

Things changed in 1985, after the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, imposed undemocratically, the Anglo-Irish Agreement of that year on the people of Northern Ireland. Rioting broke out in Protestant areas and the police found themselves being attacked more frequently by Loyalists to chants of "SS RUC".

Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement however, the police force was renamed and re-badged. This addressed nationalist concerns that the police force represented the Queen (via the word 'Royal' in the police force's name and the crown in the badge of the RUC), and was not representative of the nationalist people. A new recruitment drive was started which, to date, has been reasonably successful. The recruitment drive is not without its critics though: the policy is that there should be 50-50 recruiting when the population is about 44-56%.

A British politician, who was also the last governer of Hong Kong, Chris Patton was charged with drawing up a set of recommendations which were approved by the Nationalist and Republican political parties. To date, well over 100 of the 170-odd recommendations have been implemented already, with the rest to follow. Sinn F�in still do not support the PSNI and refuse to sit on one of its monitoring boards. Today the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) is one of the most closely watched and monitored police forces in the world.

Wow...

this is an awful lot of information for me to try and digest. Clearly, this situation is much more complex than I ever anticipated. As one person mentioned, the picture given to Americans is that this is primarily a religious conflict.

It does seem that there are many Americans of Irish ancestry who feel entitled to become quite involved in this matter. Being of both Irish and English ancestry (among many others, lol), perhaps that explains my mixed feelings on the subject!

Whenever I am confronted with a situation where I have to decide what my opinion is, on a particular issue, I have a little game I play with myself to help me make the best choices. I analayze the issue, try to find the "center" of it, and then I sort of rotate the issue in my mind, looking at it from as many angles as I can. I also try hard not to set any of my opinions in stone. New information can bring new angles to an issue, thereby changing my perspective and ultimately (perhaps) my opinion. To me, this is the definition of being open-minded, and it is something I try to do in all aspects of my life. Of course, I am human, and I am sure I often fall short, but I will continue to persevere anyway.

So, it appears that I need to step back and read this information more carefully, and look at it from as many angles as I can.

I must also comment that I doubt if I could ever become as fervent one way or the other, in this type of situation, as the people who live in Ireland who are posting here. I can only imagine what a lifetime of violence and fear, losing loved ones, and jumping at shadows must do to a person. I live in a very safe area of a very safe country, and am blessed to have been quite sheltered my whole life. It would be easy for me to sit here in my Ivory tower and tell you over there how to solve your problems. But, I don't feel it is my place as an American to do so. Telling other countries how to solve their problems is a habit that I think far too many Americans seem to relish. I hope I do not overstep my bounds in this forum.

I look forward to your responses. (Apparently, WeeIrishDevil, I can be quite wordy too! lol)