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Posted by: Firinne Nov 17 2005, 03:07 AM

Hey everyone. I ran into this site a couple of days ago while researching some Irish tunes...I am an American with a great deal of interest in Ireland. I have friends and family there, and of course some Irish ancestry too...like almost everyone else in the USA!

I have been reading some of these threads with great interest. I am trying to understand the terminology here...unionists, loyalists, etc...so bear with me if I get confused! I love history and discussing politics, and I'd love to learn more about the situation in the land of my forefathers.

Anyway, thought I'd say hi! Thanks for putting together this cool forum!

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 17 2005, 07:22 AM

Hiya Firinne and welcome to the forum I'm Irish and love learning about America, seeing as how I spend so much of my time at the states. I can understand how some of the terminology might be a bit difficult and if you have any questions, feel free to ask Also, as an alternative to asking in the forum, I do have most of the terminology, as well as loads that isn't dicussed at this forum at my website. The link is in my profile, and all you have to do is click on my name up there at the left and will take you to my profile, or here's the link in here .... http://weeirishdevil.tripod.com/id15.html I haven't yet had the time to actually change the links at my profile, but 'Glossary' listed directly under that link at the left of the page, is the continuation of that Glossary. I'll fix it someday, as well as do some editing.

Anyhoo, you'll find that I'm rather wordy and sorta opinionated but usually I get on well with everybody Hope you find yourself at home here and hope this post finds you well See ya 'roun the forum Firinne!!!

Posted by: Patrick Nov 17 2005, 11:11 AM

Welcome to the Forum.
WeeIrishDevil...'rather wordy'? ...'Opinionated'? Not You Actually, I was thinking more on the lines of 'Articulate' and 'Straight Forward'

Posted by: Firinne Nov 17 2005, 08:11 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Patrick and WeeIrishDevil.

I do actually have a question, and would love to hear the input of anyone else here on this, as well.

I have family in Ireland, as I mentioned. My cousin married a girl from Kildare (sounds like an Irish song! lol) When I was visiting there we got into some great discussions about politics...and I like to hear input from both sides of the 'pond' on this subject.

Apparently, the IRA is still quite active in the part of the Republic where my cousin and his family lives. I was surprised by this, since I had been led to believe that the peace process was well under way there, and besides, I thought it was Northern Ireland where that sort of thing went on anyway. I have even heard that there are quite a few IRA groups living in the US, and that they often garner contributions from Americans. I'd like to know how you all feel about this.

I should mention that we don't get much news here of what's going on over there...I did hear about the IRA decommissioning their weapons though, which I take it, is a great step!

Anyway, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Posted by: Patrick Nov 17 2005, 09:40 PM

Firinne, I too live in the states. I was always told thru our 'unbiased' media, that the fighting in Ireland was between the Catholics and the Protestants. After talking with the wonderful people in this forum, I learned many things our own government wont tell us. Its called the truth.
Visit my website and do some reading. Very Imformative.
As for the IRA, Bushs 'Patriot Act' has them listed as Terrorists. We cannot publicly support them without being targeted as terrorists ourselves. It is also true that a great deal of money gets sent to Ireland to help the cause. The cause of course is getting the British influence out of Ireland.
The Island of Ireland consists of 32 counties. 26 counties make up 'The Republic of Ireland', The other 6 make up 'Northern Ireland'. NI is where the majority of the 'Troubles' have started, continued, and will continue until things drasticly change.
All though everyone is welcome to this forum, we are predominately Irish Republicans. Some members use more tact than others when a challenge is presented. Some members have alot more patience as well. Some people fight with their hands, some use words to convey their feelings better than others. I think you will find that we all have a few things in common. The Love of Ireland and the Vision of seeing A Nation Once Again.

Posted by: ChrisyBhoy Nov 17 2005, 10:04 PM

Belated welcome Firinne.

Whereabouts in the United States of USA are you from?

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 17 2005, 11:19 PM

Nice and thanks Patrick Such a darlin ... same as per usual But tis ok to say I'm wordy, as I know I am lol When some people ask what colour the sky is, most would say grey, blue, or whatever the actual colour was. I'd be the one to explain in so much detail that it would be damn difficult not to paint the picture within your mind. Can be both good and bad there

Also, there are many IRA at the states. Just recently there were several more at LA and Phoenix. There's loads that goes on that others don't realise but most of why they've been in the states was for one of two reasons 1) Money and 2) hiding. As for how active or inactive they are remains to be seen. I can say this much .. they've said they weren't fighting any more. Only thing I can say is we shall see

Posted by: Firinne Nov 18 2005, 12:00 AM

Chrisbhoy,

I am from Florida. Nice and warm.


Patrick, I am just now going to look at your website. I looked at WeeIrishDevil's earlier this afternoon. Interesting stuff! As I said before, I am just trying to learn more here and plan to keep an open mind. However, I must say that the picture my family has painted of the IRA is that they are a criminal element, at least in Western Ireland where they live. Apparently extortion, racketeering, and other mafia-type crime is quite commonly done by IRA members there.

Like I said though, I don't want to jump onto any bandwagons. I just want to learn more. And I have always prided myself on being open to new ideas.

On to Patrick's site...I'll get back to you later.

Posted by: PaddyP88 Nov 18 2005, 01:28 AM

Welcome, and hope you enjoyed it!!

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 03:34 AM

Hi Firinne. I'm relatively new here too.

I thought I'd try to help you with some definitions...

Loyalist. This term comes basically from those of us who are loyal to our country and/or to the crown. However, increasingly it is used to refer to those who are rather more fanatical about it. They are often fanatical to such a degree that they harbour hatred or resentment for Roman Catholics - whether those Roman Catholics are fanatical about their own political ideology or not. So when you hear about loyalist rioting, loyalist groups etc, you know that they range from being staunch in their views, to fanatical. They are militant. Be careful though - often people of the opposite ideology will use the word loyalist to describe more moderate people. Loyalists exist throughout Northern Ireland and Scotland primarily, but can be found also in England. There is a subtle difference that I personally use when writing about them. I usually capitalise the L when I'm talking specifically about those who are involved with Loyalist organisations such as the UVF or the UDA (terrorists). I give a small L to those I perceive as merely supporting those groups, or who are extreme in their viewpoint.

Unionist. Unionists are those people who, like loyalists, support a United Kingdom, but stop short of support for violence and terrorism. They tend to be far more moderate and are not exclusively Protestant. Again, I capitalise the U for those who are active with some organisation such as the Ulster Unionist Party, or the Democratic Unionist Party. Those who merely vote for, or just simply support the ideology that Northern Ireland should remain in the UK, I tend to give a small U too. This is the category which I put myself in.

Republican. These are generally the polar opposite of Loyalists. They support what is known as the Republican Movement. In Northern Ireland, people with this ideology tend to be Socialist to one degree or another. Elsewhere though, this is not usually the case. Most Republicans support the Provisional IRA, or other similar terrorist organisations, to one degree or another. Republicans want Northern Ireland to split from the United Kingdom, and join with the Republic of Ireland. Once again, a capital R for those 'involved' and not for those who merely support.

Nationalist. These people are the opposite of unionists. They generally don't tend to support violence, and don't support terrorism. They do support the ideology of a democratically-supported change in Northern Ireland constitution which will lead, they hope, to a 32-county Republic of Ireland. Once more, a capital N for those involved with the Social Democratic and Labout Party (the SDLP), and a small N for those that merely support the ideology.

I hope that helps to start with.

Welcome to the forum.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 18 2005, 07:44 AM

ummmmm ..... bad boy Setanta ... when you referred to Loyalists, you said they were staunch in their views or fanatical and referred to the IRA as terrorists. Pray tell, Setanta, do you not see the Loyalists as terrorists also? Just a curiousity kinda thing

Posted by: Patrick Nov 18 2005, 10:32 AM

If you think that is confusing  rucdivisions.jpg ( 19.78k ) Number of downloads: 57

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 02:27 PM

Obviously I do. Didn't you read my sentence: "I usually capitalise the L when I'm talking specifically about those who are involved with Loyalist organisations such as the UVF or the UDA (terrorists)."?

Also, I said that "most Republicans support the Provisional IRA...", which implies that not all do.

The IRA are terrorists.

The UDA are terrorists.

The UVF are terrorists.

The 'Real' IRA are terrorists.

The Continuity IRA are terrorists.

The UFF are terrorists.

I don't think I could have been any clearer or any more fair tbh.

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 03:26 PM

As for Patrick's little picture.. in other circumstances it might be funny. However, considering the topic, I don't see any humour in it.

To clarify for Firinne:

RUC: Royal Ulster Constabulary. Developed from the Royal Irish Constabulary when the 26 counties split from Ireland in 1921 and formed their own government. The RUC was the police force of Northern Ireland. When it was set up it was limited by statute to a maximum of 3,000 officers. Around 2,000 of these positions were filled reasonably quickly, mostly by non-Roman Catholics. The remaining 1,000 or so positions were kept available for Roman Catholics for a time. Unfortunately the positions were not filled by Roman Catholics, and so were filled up by the waiting non-Roman Catholic applicants.

The RUC had variously between 8% and 13% Roman Catholic officers at a time when the population of Northern Ireland was about 34% Roman Catholic in 1922 to about 43% Roman Catholic when the PSNI was formed as a replacement of the RUC in 2001.

Obviously this is quite a misrepresentation. However, the RUC had attempted numerous recruitment drives specifically geared towards raising the representation of Roman Catholics in the force, throughout the years.

These attempts were constantly thwarted by the Provisional IRA throughout the 1970s and 1980s. The IRA intimidated Roman Catholics from joining the police force. Many Roman Catholics simply didn't want to join the police force because of the fear of their family or friends being killed by the IRA as a direct consequence.

Many other Roman Catholics didn't want to join the RUC because of their political ideology - one in which they refused to recognise the authority of the police force as it was representative of what they saw as a security force of a 'foreign' or 'occupying' power.

At the start of the Troubles, around 1968-69, television pictures showed the police dealing with a riot situation with a rather heavy hand. Particularly memorable were the oft-repeated segments of TV footage in which some members of the RUC had used their batons on the heads of rioting Roman Catholics. The police force hadn't seen that kind of rioting before and was, at that time, quite unprepared. Quite often rioters would out-number policemen by a factor of forty rioters to one policeman. In similar situations around the world, or in London, police forces from different parts of the country were usually drafted in to help contain the rioting. For some reason, this was not the case with Northern Ireland. More often than not, the police found themselves in the middle of riots between mostly-Catholic and mostly-Protestant areas. The rioters became increasingly sophisticated - with the throwing of bottles, bricks and petrol bombs (Molotov Cocktails).

Terrorist organisations became involved and often instigated and directed rioting. Guns were brought into the situation, and the RUC responded with plastic (or rubber) bullets and water cannon. Some of these rubber bullets claimed the lives of children who were involved in the rioting. Sometimes rioting was coordinated in different locations across Northern Ireland in such a way as to stretch an already under-manned police force.

It was clear that the RUC could not cope, and sometimes riots lasted for literally days. Instead of bringing over other police forces to help though, the government decided to reinforce the Army in Northern Ireland. At first, the idea was to help protect the smaller, and more isolated Roman Catholic communities fromthe larger surrounding Protestant areas. And the Army was welcomed in Catholic areas - the locals often bringing the soldiers cups of tea, buns and cake. This changed over time however, when the IRA organised riots in which soldiers and police officers were killed, and started actively targetting both the soldiers and the police officers - on- or off-duty - often without regard to the civilian populations.

Having been targetted specifically by Republican terrorists, and not by loyalists, the police and army started a programme of counter-terrorism against the Provisional IRA and the INLA. Laws were passed which gave 'special powers' to the police and army under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, including internment. Having seen their comrades being murdered and tortured by the IRA, some officers were apparently quite brutal to IRA suspects.

Things changed in 1985, after the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, imposed undemocratically, the Anglo-Irish Agreement of that year on the people of Northern Ireland. Rioting broke out in Protestant areas and the police found themselves being attacked more frequently by Loyalists to chants of "SS RUC".

Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement however, the police force was renamed and re-badged. This addressed nationalist concerns that the police force represented the Queen (via the word 'Royal' in the police force's name and the crown in the badge of the RUC), and was not representative of the nationalist people. A new recruitment drive was started which, to date, has been reasonably successful. The recruitment drive is not without its critics though: the policy is that there should be 50-50 recruiting when the population is about 44-56%.

A British politician, who was also the last governer of Hong Kong, Chris Patton was charged with drawing up a set of recommendations which were approved by the Nationalist and Republican political parties. To date, well over 100 of the 170-odd recommendations have been implemented already, with the rest to follow. Sinn F�in still do not support the PSNI and refuse to sit on one of its monitoring boards. Today the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) is one of the most closely watched and monitored police forces in the world.

Posted by: Firinne Nov 18 2005, 04:03 PM

Wow...

this is an awful lot of information for me to try and digest. Clearly, this situation is much more complex than I ever anticipated. As one person mentioned, the picture given to Americans is that this is primarily a religious conflict.

It does seem that there are many Americans of Irish ancestry who feel entitled to become quite involved in this matter. Being of both Irish and English ancestry (among many others, lol), perhaps that explains my mixed feelings on the subject!

Whenever I am confronted with a situation where I have to decide what my opinion is, on a particular issue, I have a little game I play with myself to help me make the best choices. I analayze the issue, try to find the "center" of it, and then I sort of rotate the issue in my mind, looking at it from as many angles as I can. I also try hard not to set any of my opinions in stone. New information can bring new angles to an issue, thereby changing my perspective and ultimately (perhaps) my opinion. To me, this is the definition of being open-minded, and it is something I try to do in all aspects of my life. Of course, I am human, and I am sure I often fall short, but I will continue to persevere anyway.

So, it appears that I need to step back and read this information more carefully, and look at it from as many angles as I can.

I must also comment that I doubt if I could ever become as fervent one way or the other, in this type of situation, as the people who live in Ireland who are posting here. I can only imagine what a lifetime of violence and fear, losing loved ones, and jumping at shadows must do to a person. I live in a very safe area of a very safe country, and am blessed to have been quite sheltered my whole life. It would be easy for me to sit here in my Ivory tower and tell you over there how to solve your problems. But, I don't feel it is my place as an American to do so. Telling other countries how to solve their problems is a habit that I think far too many Americans seem to relish. I hope I do not overstep my bounds in this forum.

I look forward to your responses. (Apparently, WeeIrishDevil, I can be quite wordy too! lol)

Posted by: Patrick Nov 18 2005, 04:49 PM

Everyone can help. Tell everyone you know or meet what the REAL fighting in Ireland is about. Not just what Uncle Sam wants us to hear. There are millions of Irish-Americans in the USA. If everyone knew the truth, It could make a huge impact on what actually goes on in Ireland.

Posted by: Firinne Nov 18 2005, 07:14 PM

Patrick said : Everyone can help. Tell everyone you know or meet what the REAL fighting in Ireland is about. Not just what Uncle Sam wants us to hear. There are millions of Irish-Americans in the USA. If everyone knew the truth, It could make a huge impact on what actually goes on in Ireland.


Patrick, I mean no disrespect here, but I don't understand the situation enough to go around soliciting the help of other Americans. Until I fully understand "the truth" of it, I would never intrude upon this matter in such a way. You are right, it COULD have a huge impact on what actually goes on there. What I am afraid of is, that if I did such a thing, I might be the reason for more deaths and violence.

I have a question for you:

What has Uncle Sam told me that qualifies as "what I wanted to hear"? To be honest, I don't hear much one way or the other from my government, with regards to Ireland.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 18 2005, 07:49 PM

Aye Firinne, tis loads of information to digest. You might find yourself in a lifetime of trying to sort through all the information. I know of people older than me that still haven't sorted it all out yet. I've asked some Americans what their system is all about, the politics, the judicial system and the laws that govern the country and they've no idea what goes on inside their own country. Maybe Americans have a way of learning other countries structures because they pay closer attention to it because it is not their own. It is interesting to say the very least.

The thing is, you said that since you're an American you don't seem to feel you've really any right to tell the Irish what to do about the situation, but the Irish have no better idea what to do in order to resolve the problems either. Fighting isn't working and voting isn't working so there has to be another way of doing things that is lost on most of our people. Also, I understand the gov there mostly avoids saying anything about Ireland in the media, or the UK for that matter unless it's to do with certain political figures in English Parliament. It isn't the fault of the pupblic at all when they remain ignorant because they don't see at the news or any shows exactly what it's all about, but you're right on one fact ... it isn't a religious war, as it hasn't been for ages. It is just about setting some unjustices right. I know the people in Ireland, Northern Ireland also, today weren't the ones that had to go through the centuries of warfare to try to retain their rights, as most of those rights were given back (to a certain degree). Even if there were foreign nations that had invaded before, the Brits are the ones that are still in Ireland. They are the ones with the military presence that hasn't moved on.

The thing is, people that want Ireland to be reunited still see hope, they still see a light at the end of the tunnel. If it worked to get the Republic, then surely it will work again for the North. The only way it's going to happen is if the majority of people will speak. I couldn't tell you how many people aren't letting their voices be heard just on intimidation at the ballot box alone. A vote could possibly end some of the conflict, but if Setanta looked at the GFA a bit more closely, if the majority of people at the North voted for them to leave, they only agreed to listen, they never agreed they would. Even if every single Irishman went to vote and said Brits out, they would review it and then chuck it like they have everything else. So the people that would vote don't see any reason to because even if their voted mattered and they tried to be heard, unltimately they'd still not honour that and would stay anyhoo. I see this all from many angles and isn't easy to sit back and watch things as they seem to be changing, but sometimes change is good and perhaps we're closer to resolving issues than we've ever been, or perhaps we've just taken the biggest step backwards in history. Who knows at this point, not me.

Speculation is good in the sense that you can see a possible outcome, but it is bad in the sense that nothing is set in stone and we could guess all day and night long but still have no real idea wtf's going to happen. I don't think in my lifetime we'll ever see a unified Ireland, and nor do I think it will happen in our childrens lifetimes. It is a sad case to see how things have gone. I know Setanta doesn't like any of the organisations, but for me it's a different story. When I've had run ins before with certain people, it wasn't the RUC or any British soldier that had my back. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why I don't think they're there to protect is what they did to me when I was only a teenager. So, for me, I not only seen the IRA as a way to be protected, but also as a means to get things done that wasn't able to be done at the ballot box, such as Setanta suggests. People can love me or hate me for what I believe, but ultimately, all of our situations are different and we've all had different experiences which helped shaped us into the people we are today, for good or ill. Nobody has to agree with me, and nobody even has to like me, but as long as there is life and breath in me, I'll always fight, even if by words, for the Unification of Ireland (A Nation Once Again).

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 09:55 PM

Newsflash: things have drastically changed. The IRA announced a ceasefire and, in general, have stuck more or less to this. For the last ten years or so, I have been able to walk around the streets of Belfast without even seeing a cop or a soldier. I can go into a store without a security person searching through my shopping bags and frisking me as I enter. I can even actually walk into the City Centre without fear of a bomb exploding.




When you say "many IRA at the States".. do you mean there are many members of the IRA in the States..?




That sound particularly onimous.

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 11:22 PM

Fighting certainly isn't doing anything other than polarising our people.

The voting though, is working just fine. Northern Ireland is part of a democracy.




Questions for you: What rights are now still being with-held, to any degree, from those people of the Republic of Ireland. What rights are now still being with-held, to any degree, from those people of Northern Ireland.

The answer for both is: none.




The Gaels are still here. The Normans are still here. The other Celts are still here. The Vikings are still here. Nobody else invaded.

As for the Brits being the ones still in Ireland.. that's because they have always been in Ireland. The military presence is that of the government which they democratically elect to have represent them - it is the army of the people.




"Re-united"? The only time Ireland was ever united in the first place was as part of the United Kingdom. There is a movement in Dublin which supports just such an idea. Are you willing to see Ireland re-united as part of the UK again?



I can tell you this much: I haven't heard of this kind of intimidation since the 1980s. When it did occur, there had been intimidation on both sides. Most often, when intimidation did occur, it was against nationalists from the IRA.

More over, many private opinion polls throughout the decades have indicated that a substantial number of Roman Catholics support Northern Ireland remaining in the UK, despite the political parties they individually vote for. The results of such opinion polls have suggested that anywhere from about 20% to 32% of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland support it remaining in the UK. This is quite a true reflection from my own experience of Roman Catholics here. When it comes to non-Roman Catholics, the percentage of respondants that supported NI remaining in the UK varied from 92% to 98%.




I looked at the GFA quite closely when I voted in favour of it. The GFA mentions NOTHING whatsoever about getting anyone to leave. The GFA states that, should the majority of people in NI vote to split from the UK and join with the Republic of Ireland, then measures would be put into place to ensure that this happened. It is fundamentally democratic, and I happen to strongly support this notion. So therefore, should a majority of people in NI ever vote that it should join with the Republic, I would accept the decision. I would still be a unionist though. I would still support the unionist ideology.




Who would do this? Nobody has the power to do this. The worst that could happen would be that loyalists wouldn't accept the democratic decision, and that there would be widespread violence.




I suggest that if you have any complaints about either the RUC or the British Army, you take it to a solicitor, and have them compensate you appropriately. I sure as hell would.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 18 2005, 11:22 PM

Well, Setanta, the thing is there has been loads of the IRA that have come to the states. I, myself, couldn't tell you why lol The only thing I have to say to the ominous statement was that it wasn't meant to be. I'm only saying that they've said no more fighting, to which you've also said they've pretty much stuck to it so far, and i was agreeing. I can hope that there's going to be a peaceful resolution and hope that things go the way the majority of people want. I just don't have much faith in the whole process. I'm sorry for my lack of enthusiasm, for my lack of faith in all this, but I've seen enough to know I trust no one and no one's word really means shit to me, even those I love and support also. It's really odd to say that, but it's kinda like having someone in your family that you really don't trust. You love them, and you'd do anything in the world for them, but you are never sure what they say is actually how things are.

Things have changed drastically. I can say i still see soldiers, I still hear the chooppers going overhead (even prevents me from being able to hear when I'm at the mobile), I might not be frisked when entering into a shoppiong centre and such, but there's still times when I'm stopped as I'm driving and am searched. It is true though that it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be in that sense. I don't fear bombs and such when I walk into places, but to say things don't happen, that's foolishness. In the last couple of years I've tried to stay away as much as possible. I can't walk down the streets close to B/more without a few problems. Most of the time I'm ok, but there's other times when you're just never so sure things are going to be ok. You see them at the other side of the street and they're matching your pace, whether fast or slow ... they turn the same corners and such and you just know what's going to happen if you stay where they can get at you. It still happens and it will continue to happen. Everything isn't all rosey ... it's not all fine n dandy, but it is much much better than it was before.

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 18 2005, 11:44 PM

That's certainly true for the family of Robert McCartney for example. I apologise for taking you up wrong in what you said. I have heard many, many things which I have perceived as kind of threats and triumphalism from supporters of the IRA. Unionists do not completely trust the IRA either... and why should they? By the same token, I can appreciate that many nationalists and republicans do not completely trust either Unionists or the British government.

I have more faith in this process, despite my misgivings, and despite the dragging of feet - from both sides - which has made the process so slow. But I also understand that change has to be affected slowly. Otherwise you surely run the risk of angering one side or the other, and we're back to Square One as quick as you can say, "Tap o' the mornin' to ya!"




There is still the occassional checkpoint after certain events or if certain Intelligence has been gathered. For example, after the Omagh bombing, there were army checkpoints put in place. After Loyalist rioting there have been checkpoints put in place. But the presence of soldiers and checkpoints is much diminished. I still hear the helicopters right over my own house. Turning the TV up a bit louder usually helps drown it out though.




The same thing happens to me.. by my 'own side' even! And I hate them all every bit as you seem to. And I've known some of these same type of people socially. They aren't willing to listen. They claim they are right.. "because we are"!

I don't pretend that things are rosy, but I do believe that the vast majority of the people are sick and tired of it all, and just want to live normally. I know that the people across the road from me in a Republican or Roman Catholic enclave are just as sick of their 'own' extremists as the people on my side of the street are of their 'own' extremists.

Things are better for everyone. In the first year of the IRA ceasefire, both foreign investment and tourism in Northern Ireland increased by something like 100%.. and continues to increase. Sinn F�in's efforts to bring the IRA into the democratic and non-violent process has paid off and has been appreciated by the fact that ever since the ceasefire, they have steadily increased in the electorial support they get. The Ulster Unionist Party, which claimed they'd never talk to terrorists (the IRA) or their representatives (Sinn F�in) have been in government with them and they have even cracked jokes during Assembly sessions with eachother.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 18 2005, 11:44 PM

So, we have our country back? We are no longer a part of the UK? (and that wasn't always so, not until the English came in and took our country away from us completely without any chance of resolution unto ourselves). We govern ourselves? All those rights they took away as in practicing of our faith were given back. The point I was trying to make is that we still don't have the right to be our own country like we were. Ireland was NOT always a part of the UK, only since England made it so. Yes, there were people here before them that were fighting for power also, but the English were the ones that ultimately took control over Ireland and did all they did to our people. I say those rights haven't been given back only because we are still a part of the UK and so subject to their laws and the rights they give people. That part you'll never be able to change my mind on. As for the Republic of Ireland ... they have more of their own rights than we do as northerners. ffs we can't even have our St Patricks Day or our Easter Parades without loads of bother. Odd that the orangies, no matter what, always get to have theirs and have the police to protect them. Police are with them .. but when we have ours ... erm ... they're there .. but not in the capacity to help our people be able to have their parade without incident .. they're only there to monitor and if it gets too far outta hand, then they'll step in. Also .. seen a few riots and such that they got into the middle of .. and you say the last ten years have been better ... but only a couple years ago there was a funeral in which a rifle was put to a priests head and told to stop ... people there to mourn the passing of their loved one was stoned and such ... supposed you don't remember incidents such as that eh? or postmen being shot while delivery posts?

I keep reiterating the fact that there is much intimidation and you don't seem to think so. You see it your way and I'll see it mine. But I still think you should go vote with me once just to see There are some Roman Catholics that want to see Northern Ireland remain a part of the UK, just as there are Prodestants that feel that we should unite both the north and the south and the brits should be out.

The GFA does mention soldiers and such leaving. But that isn't what I meant. shees .. I'm knackered and this is only from responding at a forum ... and we're travelling in a circle here.

I will say that I've talked to a mate of mine that is a solicitor and he told me any time I wished to I could do something about what happened, but there's .. erm ... extenuating circumstances. Let's just say all that I'm going to get I've already got, and anything else would be just cause more problems ... really difficult to respond to that without actually responding They were part of who I had forgiven for what happened, only thing is .. there's so much left that can never be sorted where that was concerned. So I deal with it in my own, erm, crazy way.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 19 2005, 01:20 AM

This is my last post for the night .. we both hate how things go sometimes, we both hate extremists in that sense. Things are much better as a whole than what they used to be. We both agree to work at things on a political basis, a peaceful basis. We both are tired of the death and mayhem that is the north and want to be able to live in peace. I don't feel the need to go over those points we diagree on, those points that I don't think we'll ever sway each other's minds about. No two people think the same or feel the same and nor do we think or feel the same way about those things we think about. Just as much as I think I'm right, there you are to say how right you are. It's a never ending battle that will probably never be resolved, but none the less we continue to debate our opinions. It's healthier to argue about it in here than it is to resolve the issue in the streets, least it's loads less painful Anyhoo ... long life and health to you and see you round the forum

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 20 2005, 06:45 PM

We never lost our country. We are still a part of the UK. We governed ourselves until the IRA made it nigh on impossible. We have freedom of worship in this country.




When was this?




I'm not sure about that. They are a democracy and so are we. You might as well argue that the USA have more rights than we do.




You forgot to mention the Orange parades. We can't even have them without loads of bother either.

As for Patrick's Day, there is usually very little trouble. Most Easter Rising parades pass off peacefully too.




The police have a duty to help organise the traffic on the route for any parade that has been passed as being legal.




Yeah - I can see how loads of Republicans .. the kind of people who like to kill policemen ... would just love to see their parades surrounded by these policemen and women that they love so dearly!




Not recently, no.

As for this Priest - when and where was this please? I'm sure a story like that would have been in the news. Who held a rifle to the Priest's head? What was the Priest's name? Who was being buried?




You are presently living in a mostly republican area.. correct? So any intimidation at your local polling station would only be carried out by .. republicans. However... I've not seen nor heard of any of this type of intimidation for at least a decade.. probably longer. If there was any of it going on, I would hear about it.




Which Brits? I'm not sure you defined what you meant by Brits. You see, by definition, I am a Brit... because I am British. Brit is a shortening of the word British.

So - are you saying that these people feel that I should "be out" of my own land?

What about the few Protestants who do desire a 32-county Republic? Should they not also leave? In fact, come to think of it, the whole 1.7 million population of Northern Ireland .. should they not leave being, as they are, all Brits..?

To put it simply: who do you feel should "be out" of Northern Ireland?

According to various opinion polls taken throughout the decades, somewhere between 20% and 32% of Roman Catholics want NI to remain in the UK. These same opinion polls suggest that anywhere between 2% and 8% of those of Protestant backgrounds are supportive of a 32-county Republic in Ireland.




I appreciate that things may be more complex than they appear. And I appreciate that you may not necessarily want to go into details of certain events in your life (after.. you don't know who I am.. or who I could be). But my suggestion about going to a solictor etc wasn't meant as an off-hand remark. I wish you the best in dealing with whatever type of event this was, and in getting over it as best you can.



Thanks for this post WID. Its nice to reflect on what we have in common. I'd like to add something which I believe will add to a more peaceful and mature Northern Ireland (for as long as it exists). That is, I believe that the political parties should do FAR more to appeal to the 'other side'. Republicans and Nationalists should appeal more strongly for the votes of those who are traditionally unionist. Unionists should appeal more strongly to those who have been traditionally nationalist. We should get round this religious barrier which the media has been partly responsible for creating. Back before the Troubles began in earnest, the Unionit Party had attracted a substantial vote from those who were traditionally Roman Catholic. My own mother even attended the 11th Night bonfires with many of her Roman Catholic friends.

The Battle of the Boyne in 1690, Easter 1916 and the celebration of the coming of Christianity through Patrick are all parts of our shared history and heritage. I believe they should all be celebrated as such.

Thanks again for your thoughts and arguments, and for taking the time to read what I have to say, and to respond to it all. Debate is healthy, whether it gets heated or not. And people don't have to end up feeling like mortal enemies just because of a difference of opinion.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 20 2005, 11:54 PM

Well, considering that Ireland hadn't become a part of the UK, by the Act of Union, in 1801 (1800 is when it was created, but didn't go into effect until 1 Jan 1801), I don't think you could say that Ireland has always been a part of the UK FFS ... when they passed that act ... it said that Ireland was to be joined to Great Britain into a single kingdom. The Dublin parliament was abolished then. Ireland was then represented at Westminister by 132 and they were ALL anglicans ... so much for fairness eh? Even though Ireland was still mostly catholic, they forced it to be recognised as the Anglican church being our official church. Ireland was to keep a separate Exchequer and was to be responsible for two-seventeenths of the general expense of the United Kingdom. No Catholics were to be allowed to hold public office, and no Catholic Emancipation.

It was Ireland before them and one day, God willing, should be Ireland once again. In actuality, it wasn't the IRA that made things impossible. First, you have to remember it was the United Irishmen. I'm sure you've heard of Theobald Wolfe Tone and Lord Edward Fitzgerald. They wanted to break that connection that Ireland had with England and assert our independance. It was to unite all Irishman, despite their choice of church, to bring all protestant and catholics together.

There wasn't a right to vote at that time if you were catholic. they had to pass the Catholic Relief Act in order for our people to regain some of their rights to vote, and yet they were still told they couldn't ever take a seat in Parliament. That was really nice of them to give us the right to vote for whichever one was the lesser of evils. I mean we could vote but only for those that were Protestant. Earl Fitzwilliams tried to get equality for our Roman Catholic churchs, but he was called out of office so to speak and to the disgrace of the King. So, even those that did fight for us ended up in the same boat as we did.

And back to the matter of the parades .... the Orangies get to march without much a bother as in PC ... but the bother comes in with those of us who feel their parades, through or BY our naighbourhoods are completely unecessary. I don't know about everyone else, but if someone took my home, my land and put me through so much hell, and then turned around and marched close to my house so as an

gesture, then I'm sure I'd find a way to stop them. The St. Patricks Days parade has had many unionists and protestants attend, I've even known a few. It is a part of our heritage and a part of our culture, which existed before England got handed Ireland and took control and abolished catholicism at one time. The Easter Parades are a bit different, just a bit .. but still .. we should be allowed to honour our dead in peace. The Orangies do it their way and we do it ours, but they've more allowances than we do. Which traditions should be held first and foremost .... those of the ages ... or only those of a newer age that has caused so much hatred and biggotry?

Now why would republicans love the police? I don't suppose you've seen the way our people have been treated by them .. how deaths of our catholics went uninvestigated while those of unionists and protestants were always invetigated. Also, those lovely wee interrogation centres left little to be desired. We could go on with how the police treated our people (loads of them innocent as well) but you'll only say how the republicans did the same. I can only say that republicans aren't all bad .. and yes there were some that did those kinds of things .. but they didn't do it given protection of England (and I know you know what I mean). I don't live in a mostly republican area .... I live in the middle of a black hole and if you knew Belfast, you'd know that. How big is Bawnmore Estates? Not big at all .... Surely you know of Newtownabbey ... that's where I'm at (when I'm home). Newtownabbey ... over 90% protestant, unioinist, loyalist and those that just don't give a shit one way or the other. Mostly is all Protestant and Unionists with loads of Loyalists. You see the Orangies about all the time, you see those lovely Rangers fans also that confuse being a rangers fan with being a loyalist Those that I didn't want in Ireland (should we be united) would be all those that don't want to be a part of Ireland. Anybody who would be fighting and such after the fact. If England agreed to go willingly .. if all the soliders were removed and all the military were pulled out and such ... then why keep people about that would keep the fighting going even more so. It was Ireland before England got a hold of it and in 1801 made it a part of the UK and it should be Ireland once again (A Nation Once Again).

I do thank you for wishing me well in situations unresolved.

As for your thoughts of appealing to voters on the opposite side of the fences ... tis a good idea and one I mentions in here quite a while ago. I stated that the only way we were going to be able to make things work is if we can get the support of all the people one way or the other. See, if you are thinking about it in a political sense, then all people must work doubly hard to try to get things acceptable on all sides, but unfortunately that's a task that might seem near, if not, impossible. We have to work with the reality of it all and not the fantasitcal ideals of those of us who would like to see it resolved, even though our ideas of resolution be totally different. The whole thing is, if and when Ireland should be united again, or even the North become a nation unto itself, it will only have been done so because the majority of people wish it. It won't happen till then.

I did not forget the funeral event. What I was trying to do is find proof that I could put on the net. It was in Anderstown paper ... but I'm trying to find it at the net. I'm same as you and always want proof, and I'd be more than happy to get that for you, will just take a bit more time. Anyhoo, I must be off now .. got a few things a need to do and people I need to see. lol

Also, thanks for reading my jibberish and sorry it isn't always as well thought out or formed into this post as yours, but my time is kind of limited as I'm working while I'm here and I work two jobs actually, so I rarely have the time, but for some reason, since you've been posting, I've been making it here loads more often

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 21 2005, 05:30 PM

I never said it was always a part of the United Kingdom. England became a unified country in the 10th Century.

England and Wales united in 1284, and this was made more formal in the Act of Union of 1536.

Scotland joined with another Act of Union in 1707.

The United Kingdom came into being with the adoption of Ireland in the Act of Union 1801, as you say.

In 1921, the Anglo-Irish Treaty ratified an agreement in which 26 counties of Ireland left the UK and formed their own government. This region was eventually renamed as "Republic of Ireland". Ireland was renamed as "Northern Ireland".




It still is. I'm not Anglican. I'm not particularly worried about it tbh. Things have changed a lot since 1801.




There was no non-Conformist emancipation either. In 1704, more Penal Laws were introduced whi affected Dissenters (that's non-Anglicans.. Presbyterians and Roman Catholics etc). At this time though, Roman Catholic marriages were recognised and Presbyterian marriages were not.

In 1719 however, the Toleration Act excluded Dissenters from the penalties imposed on Roman Catholics.

In 1728 an Act was passed that forbade Roman Catholics from practising as solicitors.

In 1772, Roman Catholics were allowed to lease bogland.

In 1778, the Catholic Relief Act allowed Roman Catholics to once again inherit land and take long term leases.

Also in that year: "The threat of foreign invasion encouraged Protestants to form Volunteer Companies in Belfast and Dublin. By the end of the year 40,000 Volunteers were enlisted.
The American privateer, John Paul Jones, raided Belfast Lough."

In 1781, the Belfast Volunteers met in Armagh to demand independance for the Irish Parliament and reform.

In 1782, the Ulster Volunteers - mostly Presbyterians - met in Dungannon and called for a repeal of the Penal Laws and independant legislation for the Irish Parliament.
Further improvements in the Relief Acts added property rights and Roman Catholic schools.


In 1783, the Renunciation Act ratified independant legislation for the Irish Parliament.

In 1784 the Belfast Volunteers helped fund and erect St Mary's - the first Roman Catholic church in Belfast. They invited Roman Catholics to join the Volunteers.

In 1785, Roman Catholics in Ulster formed the Catholic Defenders.

In 1791, Samuel McTier and Robert Simms founded the Society of United Irishmen in Belfast.

In 1792, the Belfast Volunteers Convention voted for Catholic emancipation.
Further additions to the Catholic Relief Act allowed the practise of law and removed the 1746 ban on inter-marriage.

Skipping past the events surrounding the United Irishmen rebellion and the formation of the Orange Order, after the Act of Union in 1801, the House of Lords rejected a bill in 1825 for Roman Catholic emancipation.

Finally, in 1829, the Relief Act granted emancipation for Roman Catholics.

In 1836, the Orange Order disbanded.




The island has been called many things. Hibernia and Sacra are two of those names - both older than the name Ireland. Ireland never had a parliament of its own until the Normans started to build it up in that respect. Then later, until British control which led to the Act of Union in 1801.




Considering the close proximity of Roman Catholic and Protestant neighbourhoods, its hard to avoid having some parades going by a neighbourhood of the 'other side'.




Took your home? Took your land? Which of these people that take part in Orange Walks have taken anybodys' home or land..?




Actually that's wrong. The first celebrations of Patrick took place in Ireland in the 19th Century. It was celebrated in Boston, Massachusetts, USA before that though... the first parade having been in the 18th Century (1737).

Patrick lived and spread the Word of God before the Reformation. Although he wasn't the first, or only missionary from Britain, he is largely credited as being the most successful. Patrick was attached to the Church of Britain (as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church) and was never actually sainted. The colours he wore were not green - they were sky blue.




I don't know of any Orange parades in which they honour any dead people.




Well, the tradition of the Orange Walks is older than both that of the Easter Rising parades and Patrick's Day parades. So you tell me.




This is a simplistic picture of what the reality was, but you get my point..? You complain that there is no police protection... but you also complain if there are policemen present. You can see why they might want to keep their distance - for fear of provoking a reaction from the Republicans.


[quote]I can only say that republicans aren't all bad .. and yes there were some that did those kinds of things .. but they didn't do it given protection of England (and I know you know what I mean). I don't live in a mostly republican area .... I live in the middle of a black hole and if you knew Belfast, you'd know that. How big is Bawnmore Estates? Not big at all .... Surely you know of Newtownabbey ... that's where I'm at (when I'm home). Newtownabbey ... over 90% protestant, unioinist, loyalist and those that just don't give a shit one way or the other. Mostly is all Protestant and Unionists with loads of Loyalists. You see the Orangies about all the time, you see those lovely Rangers fans also that confuse being a rangers fan with being a loyalist [quote]

Oh right .. so that's where Bawnmore is... Newtownabbey! lol




That's funny.. you know I'd really love all those who HAVE been 'fighting' to leave. I don't want them to get their way and then get everyone else to leave.

You can't cleanse a land of its people based on ethnicity, political ideology or religion. That kind of thing belongs in the past to dictatorships and empires. This is the 21st Century ffs!




England should agree to go where? You can't move England - its quite hefty, and somewhat attached to the continental shelf!

Let me tell you something: its not just English soldiers who have been murdered by the IRA and assorted Loyalist eejits - its Scottish, Welsh and IRISH soldiers too. And you can't remove the British from British territory.. unless you remove the territory constitutionally.




Who?




But it was never really a nation as such before the UK (not England) "got a hold of it". So how could it possibly be a nation "again"? The closest we ever got to it was back .. when.. the 1000s? When Brian Boru united the vast majority of us in an effort to rid us of the Vikings.




I'll tell you this much: I believe it will be a very slow process. And when I say a slow process, I don't mean necessarily a process towards a 32-county Republic. I mean a slow process to rid the religious and sectarian tag to our politics, to rid ourselves of the hatred, paranioa and bigotry, to rid ourselves of past offences carried out by both 'sides' (and by the security forces).




Thank you for understanding. Its not necessarily that I automatically don't believe you.. but - well you know how it is!




Well I hope its of benefit. I hope we're both learning.. *something* .. from eachother!

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 21 2005, 05:43 PM

Just on the subject of that era of history, here are some interesting stats about the Great Famine.

Population of Ireland in 1841: 8,175,124 (pre-Famine).

Population of Ireland in 1851: 6,575,000 (post-Famine).

Population of Ireland in 1861: 5,800,000.

Population of Ireland in 1871: 5,400,000.

Population of Ireland in 1881: 5,200,000.

Population of Ireland in 1891: 4,705,000.

Population of Ireland in 1901: 4,459,000.

Population of Ireland in 1911: 4,400,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1926: 1,257,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1937: 1,280,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 1961: 1,426,000.

Population of Northern Ireland in 2001: 1,700,000 (approx).

Population of Republic of Ireland in 2001: 4,000,000 (approx).

Population of Ireland in 2001: 5,700,000 (approx).

Posted by: vulvabogwadins Nov 21 2005, 06:20 PM

Some reading for you, Firinne that may help you navigate the quote wars in many of these threads and to help you develop your knowledge of Irish history.

The Green Flag: A History of Irish Nationalism by Robert Kee

Northern Ireland Since 1945 by Sabine Wichert

More to come once I get back to my library, but those are nice reference materials to have

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 22 2005, 06:58 AM

*sigh* I'm only just at the pc the night ... I'd really love to respond to all that Setanta .. but I've just worked 13 hours and am knackered, both physically and mentally atm. I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep working and be able to do all I need to do otherwise, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the money even if what I get to take back home with me will be nearly half anything I make here It's loads of hard work for very little. Anyhoo ... point here is that I can't think that much to respond to everything would take me a few days seeing as how I'm working 10am to 2 am for the next four days. I'm not going to be able to keep up with those kinda posts lol So I'm going to keep these short and just to the point.

Simple statement ... I want to have all 32 together ... I want a unified Ireland. I want, I want, I want You want something different than I do, but the reality of it is that one or the other isn't going to get what they want and is possible that neither of us will get what we want. The only thing I'm concerned with is not losing any more people. I am sick of death ... I'm sick of sorrow and the heartache that consumes our lives at times ... what a way to keep a people oppressed eh? and when I say that, no I am not just referring to catholics/republicans/nationalists. In the most technical sense of the word, we are all brothers/sisters. We keep killing our own. No matter how you look at it .. it's the same ... prods kill prods .. loyalists kill loyalists .... republicans kill republicans ... it's endless ... it isn't even just an enemy .. for at times we are our own worst enemies. Maybe you get me, then again, maybe you don't. The only thing I can say is that no matter what happens ... what is there going to be left to call Ireland or UK should it be decided once and for all (which I'm not sure that's ever going to be possible). they stay and remain a part of the UK then we're going to have fighting .... if they go and becomes Ireland reunited with the south, or even it's own Northern Ireland separate from both ... there's going to be fighting. So I'm a bit confused ... I know what I want but I'm not sure what's the best way to go about it so that at the end of the day everyone can get on well with each other. I'm half asleep here so if I'm rambling .. just shoot me lmao

Posted by: Setanta747 Nov 27 2005, 09:59 PM

Yup. I want a United Kingdom.. all 91 together. I wouldn't even mind so much if the other 26 counties of the British Isles re-joined.

As for not getting what either of us want... well, at the minute I suppose I kinda already have what I want. I'd like it improved with our own devolved form of local government back though. Your ideal *may* be catered for in the longer term.. eventually - who knows.

But I'd like to ask you a question: Considering your are living in what is currently a part of the UK, are you willing to work in any way to improve that part for as long as it remains within the UK? Can you be proud of being from Northern Ireland specifically? Can you be proud of Northern Irish groups like Ash and Snow Patrol and Stiff Little Fingers etc? Proud of the Northern Ireland football team? Proud of the our environment and the local government departments whose job it is to look after our concerns and our environment? Can you be proud of that and embrace it until such a time as a majority of us vote for a change in our constitution? Perhaps you already are.. I don't really know.




I do get you. And I couldn't agree with you more: we are torturing ourselves. Its easy to blame external influences. But, when it comes down to it, its ourselves who have the most profound affect.




I've often thought that, given the right time, and assuming that a referrendum takes place in Northern Ireland that indicates strongly that the majority of us want to part from the UK and form a single-island state with the Republic, that I might embrace it. But its got to be done slowly, if at all. To avoid the violence that might ensue, you've got to address the issues of ALL concerned. I'm no longer quite so rejectionist or paranoid about all-Ireland bodies or legislature. After all, some of those concern the desires of some of my people... the nationalists ones specifically. I don't consider them The Enemy. They're just fellow citizens or whatever, that desire a certain political framework which is different from that which I desire. The enemy is the terrorists, criminals and thugs. The enemy are those within our security forces who have lied and covered up accidents and who have covered up bloody-minded murder and torture.

If there is ever to be a 32-county Ireland.. a united Ireland, then we've got to become far more united WITHIN Northern Ireland first. I believe we are becoming just that.. the more people like you and I reject violence and realise the futility and the Catch-22 of the violence - that violence breeds violence.. the more we become united.. and the less we become paranoid and suspicious of eachother.

I reject utterly the violence and the 'cause' of the Provisional IRA - not simply because I differ in my political outlook and ideals. I reject it and condemn it because I believe in the power of democracy and I believe that time heals IF we continue to live by certain principles. I reject and condemn those loyalist terrorist groups also.. and any militant loyalist or republican stance. Other than that, I believe myself to be open and malleable. My Irish heart lies comfortably with the acceptance of the British peoples - the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish and the English, and even with all those who have come to live in the UK and become British citizens and contribute to our society and our country.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Nov 29 2005, 06:00 AM

I really feel the need to say what I've done in the past to help conditions in the North, but at the same time, then it feels like I'm bumming myself up. If you think my heart only lies in political factions, or that I've no mind for working with those that I nearly hate just to sort of keep peace, then you'd be wrong. There's no point in me telling you what I've done in the community (and no, it was as far from politically motivated as one can get). I can't ever give up hope in one day having what I want, as well as loads of other people want. I know it doesn't fit in well with what you want or already have to a certain degree, but the fact remains my heart goes only one way where Ireland is concerned, but I would and do make a difference in some ways to help better the quality of life that people have in the north. Perhaps if I knew you a bit better, I'd tell you what I've done and what I do when I'm there, but till I know someone, I don't find it easy to talk about things, especially when I know I'm, well, erm ... not that grand of a person. I'm shite, but least I know who I am and what I'm about and know that anything that's ever happened to me was well deserved for all the stuff I've done at the past. So, to me, talking about things that I do that others would see as good, grand, wonderful etc etc etc ... I see as a form of remuneration, payment for all the ill I've done. It does go beyond that, but it's sort of a personal thing and if I said, then I'd show a weakness that I just couldn't do atm. But one thing is definate ... what I work for is for the people ... but where politics is concerned .. you'll not sway my mind which way I want things to go, but perhaps I've already displayed a bit of compromise in here as in how to go about things till, perhaps, one day, I'll live to see what it is that I've, quite literally, dreamt about.

Posted by: Setanta747 Dec 1 2005, 07:40 AM

WeeIrishDevil, that is a compassionate post. I don't feel I need to necessarily know any of the details of which you speak.. I'll take what you have said at face value. I think that we have had some good discussion, and I never expected to sway your mind with regard to your political ideals. By the same token, while I consider myself to be open to all sorts of possibilities, I wouldn't expect you'd be able to sway my mind either.

But that's not the point of our discussions I think. The point is more the fact that we are talking.. reaching out... trying to understand eachother. I have less time for some of the other members of this forum because they seem to revel in the past actions of certain organisations with no thought for the people they consider their Enemy. Some of them have not even lived here, which baffles me.

As for things you may have done in your past - everything is perhaps relative. There are very few people, for example, that I believe deserve to die. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. People make mistakes. People can be duped - even intelligent people.

For myself, all I want is a democratic society (the majority of us, for now, seem to want to remain in the UK), that will change, if necessary, by the will of the people - NOT by pressure from ANY terrorist organisation.. and that includes the Loyalist ones as well as the Republican ones. I want the paranoia, suspicion, violence and discrimination to end. I want to continue to make friends with people who may be of one religion or another - but I don't necessarily know what religion that might be. Know what I mean?

Roughly one-in-ten people on the island of Britain are Roman Catholic. But the Protestants and Roman Catholics there don't necessarily know what religion others belong to. That's what I want.

Its so complex and yet so simple. I believe it will take a very long time. I'm not even thinking about what constitutional status Northern Ireland will have by that time - part of the UK or part of a 32-county Republic. But I also believe that it has started, that great strides have been made. And I recognise that some of those strides have been made by Sinn F�in/IRA.

Posted by: WeeIrishDevil Dec 5 2005, 07:03 PM

No matter what I've done, or haven't done, I can tell you this much ....

Every action taken and everything I've set out to do was with nothing but the deepest understanding of who those people were. I even have a feeling that you would have felt what I did was justified, as people who know me, even on the other side of the fence, said was justified. The problem doesn't lie in the jusitification of those things, but with the internal struggle that I've oft faced. It matters not what is and isn't justified, if what's in your heart tells you otherwise. Guilt is a powerful thing. I just wish that time did heal all wounds as it says. See, at an earlier post I talked of accidents that have happened ... like bombs that went off at the wrong place or earlier than had intended and the innocents that died because of those mistakes. I can say the same for things in my life also. You set out to do a certain thing and bad things happened to people it was never intended to happen to. So, when you say that maybe I shouldn't be so hard on myself, you've truly no idea how difficult I make things for myself. The standards that I set for myself, no matter how unrealistic, piss me off when I don't meet those standards. When you confront the enemy, or whom you belive to be the enemy, you should take the time to get to know your enemy. Battles, wars, tiffs aren't won by lack of understanding ... it is the complete understanding of your enemy that wins wars. I'm not even referring to the troubles, but in all aspects of life that works. Even something as simple as a job. You work at the same place someone else does, and you both want to move upwards ... you get to know the other poeple that would be eligible for the job that you seek and try to find a way to make sure that you're noticed over them. You get to know that person as intimately as possible. You get to know their hopes, dreams, fears, and everything else. That is how you win. It might not be your enemy in the classic sense, but it is your rival for a job. I treat all others, whether friend or foe, with the same respect that I expect to be shown. You have to have respect for your enemies and never underestimate them. In the process of learning about some of your enemies, you oft find that they're not very different than you are and can be quite troubling, and then there's the opposite side of things where you find that they are so very different, which makes actions you take later only seem more justified. Then there's the rare and odd time where getting to know your enemy actually makes you not want any ill for that person and sometimes even end up as mates that can work together for a common cause. Look the Shankill Butchers .... do you honestly think the IRA was solely responsible for his demise? No ... they had help from their very own enemies to get shot of someone like him. There's enemies to each other and then there's enemies that are to all. It all just makes me realise a few things about human nature. We will do what we have to in order to survive ... survival of the fittest kinda thing. If it takes working with your enemies to ensure our people's survival, then I'd be willing. We can keep killing each other, or we can find a way to make things work. I've done things the bad and very hard way for ages, now it's time to listen. Active, not passive listening is the only way both sides can relate and try to learn from each other and see each others point of view. We don't have to agree, we don't have to see eye to eye, but we do always have to respect others views and thoughts. For some those things weren't even theirs, they were put there by their parents and such. Look the weeans today ... they know what they're taught. In our family it was same. The only difference between my family and some of these others is the fact that we were sorta left to our own after they put their ideas in there. It gave me loads of time to see things from many different angles. I've learned loads that way. There is also those that didn't have any guidance where politics was concerned, and that's how I choose to do things with me and mine. With mum n da having passed away ages ago, I've decided not to carry on their traditions in those matters. I let the weeans of today find out for themselves. I don't ever make any comments about political situations and they're considered rather ignorant of most of it, or at least they were. The thing is, they've suffered also, beatings and such .... so they've formed their own opinion. It was the same as with religion ... I let them choose, and thank God they chose the same paths as me in that sense. I don't believe in forcing people to believe what I do, but I do expect that when people do hear what I have to say that they do understand, as best as they can, why I do feel the way I do. That in no way means agree, it just means understanding. You don't have to agree with me, but I'd expect you to at least understand where I'm coming from. I know there's people that won't understand and for that I'm truly sorry for them, as they'll never know what it is to feel anything but hatred for another person. It isn't about hate for me, it's about a cause, a reason. It's about a dream, a hope, a thought, an ideal and the means by which to achieve that dream. I wouldn't ever kill just for hope, as that diminishes it. There is tactics and strategy in warfare. We've done the killing thing, and now some of us are ready to see how long peace will last.

Let me ask you a simple question ...

What happens if someone is constantly accused of something? Look at husbands and wives .... hubby is away most of the day and night and his wife is accusing him of fuckin around. Even if he wasn't with another woman, she's going to think the worst .... what will he eventually do because of those accusations? I'm not going to say every bloke would do something like that, but I'd say the majority of them would do it just because they've been accused of it so much. It gets deep down into their hearts, their minds and their souls ... they would do it because of suggestion, as well as all that seems to happen in the relationship following those accusations and the false belief of those things.

How is this any different with the IRA? I mean if people are going to keep accusing them of not actually having done what they have, and if they truly don't think they've ended their war ... then how will they ever be able to prove it and what is going to happen after so many thoughts, actions, and deeds have been set out against them? We're all human and we all make mistakes, so push and push and then the people might get what they've wanted, which evidentally isn't peace. At some point people are going to have to take people at their word, if not, there's never going to be anything but mistrust and will accomplish nothing but starting the war all over again. If things go back to a more militant compaign kinda thing ... it will be ten times worse than it ever was. It would no longer be for a cause but would be out of spite.

I'm an odd person, with odd ideals and very passionate about my beliefs. I can listen to others and I can compromise, but I can't tolerate either political or religious indifference, ignorance, nor intolerance. I know people want to say all kinds of shite about protestants, and I'm sure there's bad ones out there, but there were loads of them that fought and died for Ireland's freedom. It isnt about God and isn't about church, it's about us, the people. It's about politics, money, power, influence, prestige, status, control .... so many things, but it hasn't been and won't ever really be about God. I used to hate most prods .... I don't anymore, but I've found just as many of them wanting a free Ireland as there are of us catholics that want the same as. I also can't say I hate all unionists, but I will say I do have this ever growing hatred for all loyalists. Politics, a democracy isn't going to work if the majority of the people that are involved are only on one side. I know there's some of our people in there also, but the sad fact of the matter is that it's still the queens democracy. I'm not sure if you get that or not, but it's still not exactly fair atm, but it's getting better Now lets just hope that the ignorance of a few people don't destroy what's being built before we have time to build it. I didn't ever do what I did because I enjoyed it, or because I wanted to do it, I did what I did because I felt it was necessary to do what I was doing. What people are doing now isn't necessary and isn't going to accomplish anything. I'll never stop wanting a free Ireland ... I'll never give up on the idea of A Nation Once Again, I'll never give up on those ideals, but if there's a way to acheive it without losing any more people than WE already have, then I'd give it a chance, as I'm doing.
GOTTA GO

Posted by: jobon Feb 11 2006, 11:27 PM

Hello from South New Jersey!